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Post by Qinlongfei on Nov 10, 2016 18:03:41 GMT -8
Not sure if this is the correct section for this kind of thread, but I wanted to give a more complete feedback for a while, and since .111 got released I thought I will play this version and see what new things it added.
And after playing it for about 3 hours, my thought became: Did anyone even play test this tub of fuck before it got shat out?
I understand this game is still in extremely early pre-alpha stage of the development, but the 3 hours I spend with version .111 is one of the most infuriating 3 hours I ever spend with my whole life. And I'm someone who had to endure spending time with a Chinese style family pre-arranged girlfriend whose gut I utterly hate while pretending I enjoy her company because I don't want to dishonor my family.
The reason for that is the amount of crash I have with .111. I have played games with a lots of crashing before (every Bethesda game after Morrowind, cough cough...) but .111 is the most unplayable pile of mess I have ever played and that include Skyrim which becomes an unplayable pile of dogshit after you get about 90+ mods (at least Skyrim only becomes dogshit when you add a bunch of script that you aren't supposed to). Because one of the most fundamental feature of RPG - the saving system - is now completely broken. Someone already mentioned the save crash on the tutorial mission. But I'm encountering save crash on the kobold princess mission, where trying to save after the first fight with a Penguin mob will crash my game. At this point after loosing my entire progress on the first dungeon (and some testing I do to make sure the saving system with that dungeon is broken), I basically said: Fuck this game, I'm not letting this game play me anymore.
I'm not a programmer guy. So I have a lots of respect for people who make video games and I have no idea what's happening behind the scene. But having played the (admittedly still pretty buggy) a much stable .110 there's just no excuse to release a version that broke a fundamental feature of the game that works before.
I understand the reason you guys are releasing pre-alpha build is to let community help finding bugs, but this really comes off as NOBODY has even spend a few minutes play testing this version before put it up.
I mentioned before I really like this game, and I still do because I always thought Tower Girl would make a very fun video game. Especially a community funded video game where the developer can get a stead stream of income to keep adding new content to the game rather than hacking off content as paid DLCs to get their investment back (just like the pen/paper game). I think this is an excellent alternate to Towergirl Kingdom Conquest since that game focuses more on action rather than a more traditional turn-based RPG experience.
But now, I don't think I'll ever be interested into become a backer even when this game gets more content and I become confident the dev team will keep working on it. Because at the back of my mind, .111 will always linger there and make me wonder if the next update will be a complete mess that broke everything that used to work before.
Since this is the suggestion section, I guess my suggestion would be to actually spend a weekend play test your newest version. At least make sure some of the more basic function of the game is in working order before you post your update? Because honestly, with how more and more people gets burned by more and more community funding project, release a version like this doesn't give confident to anyone who might be interested to contribute with their money.
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Post by DukeFluffy on Nov 11, 2016 12:25:38 GMT -8
I was going to give you a single sentence response, but behind your irritation it feels that you care, so I'll be a little more thorough than that.
I'm sorry that you have been experiencing crashes that prevent any enjoyment of the game. My fixing crashes, and bugs, requires reports in order to deduce what the issue is. On my own end, both with the fully-compiled and compile-on-the-spot code, I do not experience any crashes when saving. And I only got one (two now, with you) report through Discord, email, tumblr, bay12, and these forums. Normally this isn't a problem (as I can go in and debug the crap out of something), but it's not very enlightening to have a crash log that says 'something went wrong in this massive save script'. I'll go in and compare the save script with older versions and see what has changed, to see if that might illuminate what is causing a crash for some players.
I do wholeheartedly agree that the game needs to be tested more before patches go live. I have been dropping the ball on that. This will be more a thing in the future when I am less busy with real-life bullshit. In the past I would run through whatever new content was added in, with the compiled .exe, along with saving and loading and so on, before going live. There has not been enough time to do that this past month, so patching has been more rushed. In the future this will be less of an issue.
Later on, when and if you give the game another shot, hopefully it will be more stable and enjoyable. Every member on the team has full time work, or full time school, so we can only put in what time we have available. All of us want to make a fun, deceptively lore-filled game, that explores the Towergirls universe and all it offers. It's just an ongoing effort.
Thank you for the feedback.
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Post by Qinlongfei on Nov 11, 2016 16:16:10 GMT -8
I realize I might been pretty harsh with my post due to how frustrated I was last night. I can completely understand real life getting in the way either with school or work, and I won't even mind it that much if this is just a fan passion project on some Towergirl forum.
However, you guys have a patreon which is asking people to donate money. And that really change things. I understand having a patreon is different than actually selling the game (AKA having it behind a paywall) but when you do a release that if I'm allowed to be frank, doesn't have very substantial content addition yet very buggy. It really hurt your credibility as developer.
So personally, I think if you lack the time to do proper testing just delay the actual content update. Maybe have a post update saying: sorry, but we are busy with our lives. We need some more time to test out our new built.
At least in my mind, being open about lack of free time and openly communicate it with people who finance you is better than rush a potential buggy version. Especially as I stated now people are getting burned more and more by crowd funding.
That being said, I do have some other feedbacks regarding the game aside from bugs.
I already stated in my reply to the accuracy thread I like the lore of this game. I think between the lore entry in encyclopedia and dialogues the passion behind this project really shines through. Bard Knight's dialogue tree is really good at both introducing the lore in a more natural way than reading the encyclopedia, and teasing future content to come. And I really like how he have his own mind about Human Kingdom's politic and ruling family. I hope this eventually gets extended to Goblin Knight as well since right now his chat function is obviously unfinished.
That being said, I do hope once the game become more stable there can be more companion dialogue. Not just in chat function but during quest.
One example is Bard Knight, when I get him and ask him what should we do next he tells me not to waste time in saving human princess. But I can put that quest on hold and do Kobold Princess questline instead and he doesn't make any comment about me wasting months traveling north to an icy waste to rescue a lizard. It does break a bit of the immersion of his character. I think it would add a lot to his character if he makes comment about how I'm wasting time during that quest.
I also really like the different flavor text I can choose in dialogue. While most of the time it doesn't actually change any outcome of the quest (the only exception I remember is to fight the 3 human knights or convince them to work together during Human Princess's quest) I like how this factors into role playing element to shape what kind of a person I'm role playing as and I hope in the future there can be both more options to choose different tone of my character (rather than the more typical just one good, one neutral and one rude) and make actual difference in the quest. And I hope in future there will be quest with different outcomes.
One thing I do find is a bit of a missed opportunity for some role play is the start conversation where one of the knight ask what my character did, and my character automatically say he slay a dragon. I guess the intent is he's inebriated on alcohol and just want to brag. But then again, not long after I can choose what my character's life goal is so that part just feel flat. I choose the most humble looking 'rescue one princess and be happy' since I mostly like to role play as a heroic goody two shoe character (aside from when some character really pisses me off which I'll be the biggest dick to them back). And changing my character's tone from bragging about slaying dragon to a more realistic life goal just feel a bit immersion breaking to me. Not a huge deal, but I think it would really help if I got an extra option to choose my response there.
Music for the most part is another huge thing I enjoy with the game. I'm not sure if the music you guys use is composed by yourself, or licensed tone from somewhere else (or in free domain) but all the music really fit the medieval feel of the game and are easy to the ear. The title music on the menu is a song I can listen to all day long.
I'm not sure Conjure Pastry ability is bugged, or simply unfinished (because in the encyclopedia entry there's a silhouette that looks kind of like a muffin). But it doesn't summon pastry item when I attempt to use it in dungeon map like its description.
Well, I do want to see this project succeed and I'll definitely keep an eye on it. Hopefully .111 (at least with how I'm experiencing it) is just a fluke and later update will be amazing.
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Post by Qinlongfei on Nov 11, 2016 17:08:10 GMT -8
Just give .112 a try. I am glad the crash on save has been fixed. Got to the second dungeon of Kobold Princess questline and hasn't experience crash on save yet. Although there are still some other bugs I encountered:
Linger too long on weapon tab of inventory gives me a crash from tutorial to the first time I got on over map. Not sure when it stops but this seems to stop when I'm in the second Penguin dungeon. Here's the message I got with the crash: ___________________________________________ ############################################################################################ FATAL ERROR in action number 1 of Draw Event for object obj_items:
string_width argument 1 incorrect type (0) expecting a String (YYGS) at gml_Object_obj_items_Draw_0 ############################################################################################
The player character is kind of misplaced in the scene with the three debutante Knights. The player stand right of them instead of left of them as it should. Not an huge issue, but still make the scene look funny without intended.
The game still seem to have problem exist a dungeon once its finished. I have to make a save game, and then load it in order to exist both the tutorial and the first penguin dungeon.
Game also has problem loading map correctly when first entering a dungeon. I have to save, and then load for it to function correctly. Happens in both the first and second penguin dungeon.
One the second penguin dungeon, I discovers a chest that contains a 'Sterile Bandage' but it's not added to my inventory or encyclopedia.
And an added point I forgot to mention. I really like the kind of fast travel option using map when in a dungeon. It makes backtracking vastly less of a hassle which I think is a good call with how long a lots of dungeons are.
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Post by DukeFluffy on Nov 11, 2016 18:08:40 GMT -8
I agree whole-heartedly on the Patreon thing. Releasing decent content on a timely basis is my biggest concern. When it comes down to it, people are willing to offer what they feel is fair. If we fail to deliver on our promise, we get less money. An argument could be said that our current content and bugginess is seen as worth $190 a month to the Internet, since that's what it seems to equalize at (with patrons coming and leaving). Once we have a better game, that has more content and is more stable, that will go up in return. If that is not done in a timely fashion our Patreon will take a hit, which is only fair and natural. Communicating a lack of testing in the future, and maybe waiting a bit longer, would be smart. This time around the build wasn't released by the third of the month, and I felt that was late enough. Will point out the starting tutorial dialogue to our writers. Happy that you've been enjoying the music. Most of the tracks in the game were composed by ArizonaMusic, who is the same guy who did the CATastrophe soundtrack. All of what he's done is excellent. Here's his SoundCloud- soundcloud.com/arizona-music/Balancing characters going 'we gotta hurry' and actually having a time limitation is a tricky problem. It's possible to actually put in time limits, with failure when it finishes, but that feels very bad for most players. Theoretically, a player could also save far down the timer and end up in a situation where something cannot be completed. My current thoughts are that the slight loss of immersion are worth avoiding that. There's always a solution to incentive something to be done quickly, or not have much of a penalty, but that requires much more work and thinking, and writing alternative paths of a quest. One of the quests coming up that will /definitely/ have a time limit is the Knight Tournament from Fisher Kingdom. Otherwise, I will be taking a look at all the bugs/weirdness that you pointed out, after my midterms. Best case scenario we'll have all that stuff fixed along with the next big push of content towards the end of this month. Given what we have completed all ready, and that can go in, that is completely feasible. Being harsh is mostly okay- while it may have been irritating, you did point out some very valid concerns and problems that are going on. I'd rather people be harsh and onto something than not provide feedback at all.
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Post by Qinlongfei on Nov 11, 2016 21:19:20 GMT -8
You misinterpreted what I meant on the part about companion dialogue, although that's probably my fault because of the example I showed (although in my defense there's not that many example currently present in the game).
What I meant was not about adding a timer on when can I complete a quest (especially what looks like the intro quest to human Kingdom story line), but adding additional companion response to quest they aren't directly related depends on if they are in the party or not. Use an outside experience, in Fallout 4 sometimes depends on what companion you bring, the companion would have a dialogue added in certain event. Or another example, in Fallout New Vegas certain companions has 'triggers' on certain event which would cause them to walk up to the player and say something (mostly Arcade).
My suggestion is once when the game becomes more stable, maybe add some kind of trigger to have different companion chime in on more than their own questline. For example, if player has Bard Knight during the Kobold princess mission he can make some witty comment on the Kobold and penguin. Or if player has Kobold Knight during human princess mission maybe have him berate the boss for being all mouth and no bite. It feels like something he would say to a dungeon boss that only challenge player with word and hide behind minions.
Having companions actually respond to different event outside of their own quest really make them feel much more alive.
The Glacier Tower currently have some trap placement that feel a bit cheap to me. One trapwire (I think it's placed on the 4th floor) is literally one pixel left from the player's starting location on that screen which will guarantee a trigger for the first time since on that screen player is supposed to move left. I don't feel like it add any kind of challenge, since it just force me to a reload. And sometimes the battle background for Glacier Tower would disappear with only a blank grey screen.
Speaking of the human princess questline... I absolutely love this dungeon!
First the dungeon is much better designed than the 3 penguin dungeons. It has a very oppressive tone like the game Darkest Dungeon, and the respawn boss on first level really add a lots of tense atmosphere (Although I kind of cheesed him, more on that later). What I think it's smart is there's an actual shortcut on the first floor that depends if the player got a key dropped from mob or not.
Bringing Wine Knight from the intro to have some interaction is a great touch. It's so satisfying to see how the player turned from the drunkard he laughs at from the beginning to a heroic figure that surpasses him. Although I hope in later version maybe he can become a recruit-able companion since it doesn't make sense the player can't take him when there's companion slot still open, other than there's no script and companion information about him.
If there's only the good level design, and bring an old face back this dungeon would still be really good. But what elevate it into a great dungeon in my book is the clever final boss. While it's still possible to simple do a prolonged battle, I love how this boss can be defeated by choosing clever dialogue option in a battle of wits. In my first play-through I just battled my whole way because I have no idea what the characters are even talking about (since I don't understand much about the old English)... And I feel like I cheated. So I reloaded my save and this time I did it legit, trying to choose the correct dialogue option. I feel unbelievably good at beating the mirror at its own game, and help Human Princess gain some much needed self-esteem in the process. Definitely much better than the usual RPG's 'make sure your healing number is bigger than boss' attack output' battle.
A bit of some additional bug I found (aside from the background). On my way from penguin dungeon back to Kobold country, when the party lands on the area of the enchanted tower I can click on the map, and enter the Enchanted Tower dungeon with Kobold Knight still in my party. And that's how I completely cheesed every battle with Shade Knight: by having three lv 3 knights in my party he feels more like an exp cow than a high tension boss encounter I need to actively avoid. Although doing this would cause a crash later after the battle with the molted kobold so I think this is a bug.
Human questline right now is clearly better made than Kobold questline both in term of writing quality and level design. The three dungeon back to back with Kobold princess rescue doesn't add anything really interesting to the story, just a tedious slog of dungeon crawl... which would be fine if not for how much more clever I think the Human princess' quest is.
The only thing I find interesting about Kobold questline right now is at the end where it's show there's some rogue kobold faction which I think would be interesting follow up quest. But the princess rescue itself is... pretty bland and generic 'rescue the princess' trope.
I think it would be much more interesting if instead of being a bunch of mindless monsters, the penguins are also intelligent beings where the player can choose to solve the problem through brute force or diplomat.
Overall, I'm pretty impressed at what you guys have so far. Definitely still keeping an eye out for this on future content updates. And best luck with your endeavor.
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Post by DukeFluffy on Nov 14, 2016 13:20:28 GMT -8
Oh, I see. Having characters putting in their two cents is something we have put a good amount of thinking into. With the wide cast that we will have, eventually, it is unfeasible to write custom dialogue for specific character combinations (for /all/ of them at least, some will have special conversations or back-and-forth), but there's ways to work around that. Having 'these characters will say this one-liner at this situation', or something along those lines, is something we'll probably be doing with knights. Or having a positive-negative-neutral response for when they respond to another character. As we get more characters in the game there will be more of this going on.
Glacier Tower trap placement is working as intended. Will rework trap placement scripts at some point, but other priorities.
I'm glad that you enjoyed Enchanted Tower a lot more than Glacier Tower! We learned a lot from the first tower quest, and had a lot more people providing ideas and dialogue for that one. It was much more a labor of love than proof-of-concept. Down the line we'll probably spiff up Kobold Princess' rescue to make that more enjoyable.
Noted on the bugs, going to be trying to hit as many of those as possible while the new stuff goes in.
Thanks for the kind words. I'm really looking forward to having several completed princesses- once that is all working we can focus on the actual story/plot of the game. Eventually.
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Post by Qinlongfei on Nov 14, 2016 15:39:31 GMT -8
I can clearly tell Human Princess quest is a labor of love. And I think if you guys continue to add top quality quest (rather than just check-listing like most of the Fallout 4 quests) like this one you'll get better and better reception from public. At least, count myself extremely impressed after playing this one. Here's one idea I have about the 3 penguine dungeons back to back. Not sure if it'll conflict with either the mechanic or lore of the game, but I think this could make the three dungeon back to back actually serve a reason. First dungeon Glacier Field doesn't really need any change. With the possibility of instead the scouts being ins statistic location like currently they can move around like Shade Knight and player need to keep on check the map to hunt them down. Considering they are the 'best scouts' I think it makes sense they would keep on the move. Of course, this might need to require new design of the dungeon and it might annoy some players who doesn't like play a game of cat and mouse so it's up to you guys to decide. Key thing is, first dungeon serve as an introduction of the conflict, where player gets the Kobold's side of the story. Second dungeon Glacier Keep, where the player can still just hack all the way to the next dungeon. But place a series of clue hunting, maybe notes or journal entry in the side routes. And see maybe Penguin had a reason they kidnapped Kobold's princess and it's not entirely their fault. Key point, this is a twist on the quest's pre-existing information on where a more thorough player gets rewarded for a more complete information on the conflict. And in the last dungeon Glacier Tower, if player collected all the clues from previous dungeon add a scene where the player can either solve the conflict diplomatically, or run through another side quest to have the quest complete in a diplomatic way where both Kobold and Penguin can be happy. And if this quest can be completed in the 'good ending' maybe add in some additional content in the future. Of course, that's just my thought on how the Kobold Princess quest can be made more interesting. You guys might already have better ideas, or my idea conflict with the setting you guys want to write. So consider this an added idea to idea pools rather than a demand. And hey, if this happens to be a new idea maybe you guys can use it in someway for future quest.
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